Giuliani debated Pence’s ability to nullify votes: former Trump lawyer

  • Eric Herschmann said he spoke with Rudy Giuliani about Mike Pence’s chances of overturning the vote.
  • He said it was an “intellectual discussion” about the role of the vice president on Jan. 6.
  • He said Giuliani told him he was “probably right” that there would be issues with Pence.

Eric Herschmann, a former White House attorney for Trump, revealed Thursday that even on the morning of the Capitol riot, Rudy Giuliani was still debating whether then-Vice President Mike Pence had the power to void votes in the 2020 election.

Herschmann’s testimony aired Thursday during the third of the six public hearings organized by the January 6 committee investigating the Capitol Riot. Thursday’s session focused on pressure exerted by the Trump camp to try to get Pence to cancel the vote.

Herschmann said he received an “out of the blue” call from Giuliani on the morning of Jan. 6, 2021, regarding Pence’s role that day.

“And, you know, he was asking me for my perspective and my analysis, and then their practical implications,” said Herschmann, who described the call as an “intellectual discussion.” “And when we were done, he said, ‘I think, you know, you’re probably right.'”

House panel member Rep. Pete Aguilar said it indicated how Giuliani knew the problem of touting the theory that Pence was capable of nullifying votes.

“Of course, the fact that Mayor Giuliani seemed to admit the theory was wrong didn’t stop him from standing in front of the crowd hours later on January 6 and saying the exact opposite,” Aguilar said, making reference to Trump’s ally. lawyer and former mayor of New York.

He then played an excerpt from Giuliani’s speech during the Trump rally at the Ellipse, which preceded the Capitol riot. In the clip, Giuliani was heard claiming that Pence could “decide on the validity of these twisted ballots or he can send it back to the legislatures, give them five to 10 days to finally finish the job.”

Giuliani has continued to make false allegations of voter fraud in the 2020 election. He also faces a $1.3 billion defamation lawsuit against him, fellow Trump ally Sidney Powell and MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell of Dominion Voting Systems.

Giuliani was also suspended from practicing law in New York and hit with an ethics charge by the DC Bar for his baseless campaign claims in June 2021.

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Jon J. Epps